Thursday, April 13, 2006

It's Heresy Week in America...Again

Ahhh, Holy Week! The time to fix our hearts and minds upon the Garden of Gethsemane, the Via Dolorosa, the Cross of Calvary and...the usual scoffing, freakin' loonies hell-bent on "debunking" Christian doctrine.

What a mess. And at my church last week, during our adult education forum, we hosted a university professor (who else), who managed -- within the space of one little hour -- to make a good many folks believe that the Gospel of Judas had as much right to be included in the Bible as those of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (the latter of which was dismissed as "simply an attempt to rebut the Gospel of Thomas"). Another gem of wisdom to which we were treated was the observation that -- according to a newspaper article -- Jesus never actually walked on water, but on ICE!

I read the same articles as Herr Professor. Funny, they just didn't impress me as much.

All I kept thinking was "Oh, no...not again!" NOT. FREAKIN'. AGAIN. It took me the better part of a decade to find a church home I thought was both welcoming and doctrinally-faithful -- or, at least, so I thought. But we gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered Christians are probably chasing a fantasy in thinking that straight Christians anywhere to the Right of so-far- to-the-Left-they're-practically-falling-off-the-edge-of-the-earth are ready, yet, to accept us.

Of course, this is the same problem that African-Americans had a few decades back, during the Civil Rights Movement. Those on the Religious Right disgraced themselves and everything they claim to believe in, opposing equality for Black Americans at every turn. Who supported racial minorities in their quest for civil rights? Only, for the most part, those in the White liberal Christian community.

I wish to point out, however, that Black Christians refused to let themselves get sucked into the vapid la-la-land of liberal Christian theology. To this very day, Black churches are usually solidly doctrinally traditional -- and most are downright conservative. They basically said, to the White Christian Leftists who supported them, "Thanks for behaving like true Christians toward us, but your theology still isn't our cup of tea."

Would that more gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered Christians had the same sort of integrity.


At 8:58 PM, Blogger wishyaknewme? said...

OK I did not read all of your post but it really ticks me off.I read the last sentince and have this to say :I do not know you ,but if you beleve that you can be gay and a christian you are so very wrong God hates it if you are gay .

At 9:06 AM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

All I can say is that you are woefully ignorant. You need to (1) actually go back and READ the Gospel and (2) get ahold of at least one of the literally dozens of fine books on the subject of gay Christianity and actually learn something.

Willful ignorance is not a sign of strong faith; it is a sign of weak faith.

P.S. What could possibly be better proof of your ignorance that you're commenting on a post you DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO READ!

At 9:10 AM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

P.S., Wishful Thinking:

As people do not choose to be gay, the fact that you believe God "hates it" if I'm gay is a further sign of your mental deterioration, due to your lack of willingness to use the brain God gave you to think.

It's simply not up to you to determine who can or cannot be a Christian. The surest sign that you yourself are wrong with God is that you worship yourself in this way. You are no Christian -- you are a self-idolater.

At 12:42 PM, Blogger wishyaknewme? said...

if I CAN'T say YOUR NOT a Christian
what makes you think that YOU can?

"There's is none righteous no not one"
Psalm 51:4

and look at Romans 1:18-32

and then tell me that I'm ignorant
do you even have a Bible ?
READ IT!!!!!!!!!
By Gospel you mean Bible right?
I have it right here on my lap,
your the one with wisful thinking.

At 12:45 PM, Blogger wishyaknewme? said...

You know that being gay is enough to count you as mently isane right?
look up dsm4.
I'm not going to do this any further
it's a waste of my time .

At 6:20 PM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

The only thing I can do for you, at this point, is to hope that at some point, you find out why gay Christians are confident we can be gay and Christian.

I certainly see no point in carrying on any further in dialogue with someone content to dismiss me as "isane" (sic).

You don't even give evidence of being intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying. Nor are you the sort of "Christian" even the most conservative believers would want to brag about.

So at this point, I'm simply going to take Jesus's advice and cast not my pearls before swine.

At 9:13 AM, Blogger Lyric Crossborn said...

Another great post, Lori. Having a somewhat conservative theology as a lesbian is a position in which one feels as if they stand alone. Hang in there! You're one. I'm one (when I'm not struggling with my faith altogether). Now if the others would just raise their voices and be heard!

Trying to reason with folks like wishyaknewme? is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates both you and the pig, you end up covered in mud, and the pig learns nothing. Mixing metaphors--save your pearls for someone capable of and willing to appreciate their worth.

Take care.

At 8:07 PM, Blogger wishyaknewme? said...

have you ever read : how to build a time machine by Paul Davies it's a physics book I read when I was 12, or: Ideas and Opinions ,it's Albert Einstein's Ideas and Opinions,or any of Mary Shelly's works she wrote :Frankenstein,or : secrets of the universe? it's a collage book,or anything that has to do with Don Quixote?
or oh do you go to public schools?
HA! public school's a joke!

At 8:09 PM, Blogger wishyaknewme? said...

I'm sorry if you feel hurt, forgive me it was rude.

At 2:25 PM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

Thanks, Lyric...I appreciate your insights and your support.

Wishyaknewme...As a matter of fact, I graduated from a private university, Grand Canyon U, which was, at the time, a Southern Baptist school.

Suffice it to say, gay Christians are aware that most evangelicals think there are passages of the Bible that condemn same-sex love. We know those passages as well as anyone; we simply have investigated them in greater detail than most people bother to and we don't believe they were talking about committed relationships between same-sex couples.

I understand that you are trying to witness to me, and I am sorry I called you names. That accomplishes nothing. It is better to pray for people than to try and argue with them through a computer. That may be good advice for us both.

At 9:35 AM, Blogger Doxallo said...

We know those passages as well as anyone; we simply have investigated them in greater detail than most people bother to and we don't believe they were talking about committed relationships between same-sex couples.

Hmm, than 'most people'? Not wanting to argue, but I'd have to say thats an assumption on your part. Simply because you came to a different conclusion (one that happens to support your lifestyle) than others does not necessarily mean you investigated it in greater depth, others investigated it in depth as well and simply disagree.

While I agree you can choose to have whatever type of relationship you wish and in fact be christian, I also know that I can lie or steal etc and still be christian. No one said we'd be perfect now, or have all the answers in this life.....and I know I am capable of being deceived as much as you.

I can agree to disagree. I appreciate your call to doctrinal soundness and I was very pleased to hear our brand spankin' new pastor (new to our congregation but with 20some years exp) expose the flaws in the judas story this past Sunday. Would that more would do the same. :)

Blessings to you - ASIC,

At 1:10 PM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

Thanks for the comments, Janice. We agree that orthodoxy is important. You seem to see that as primarily being about the comfort and sense of security it gives believers, whereas for me, the bottom line is Christ and His Gospel. He was crucified by "good religious people" who let their concern for orthodoxy exceed even His authority as the Word Made Flesh.

Gay Christians do not believe that loving and committed same-sex relationships belong on a par with lying, cheating and stealing. Obviously more than a few hetero Christians (who have, as a group, as high a divorce-rate as anybody in the country) are somewhat schizoid in their own interpretation of Scripture.

Same-sex orientation is really (just like heterosexuality) far more about love than it is about sex. It is, in fact, primarily the fact that so many hetero Christians can't seem to get their brains out of their shorts that they don't seem to be able to understand this. You know nothing about my lifestyle, so you're simply making yourself sound foolish.

Jesus condemned divorce. Hello? JESUS. CONDEMNED. DIVORCE. In fact, He called those who divorce and then remarry ADULTERERS. Have Evangelicals set that aside? Yes indeed they have. Was it to support their self-indulgent "lifestyle?" Of course it was.

Janice, if you support the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq -- if you do not speak out against the atrocities committed by the U.S. in other countries -- then you are a murderer. I don't believe God thinks too highly of murder. If you support the state-sanctioned confiscation of the earnings of private citizens in "income tax," then you are a thief. The religious leaders in this country have sold their souls for political power, and their sheeplike minions have done exactly the same. When Jesus said that we were "sheep," I doubt if this was what He had in mind.

You know nothing about gay people. Do gay Christians, on the whole, have a greater in-depth knowledge of the passages of Scripture so commonly used to clobber us? Well, just use a little common sense here! As our eternity is at stake (and yours is not), of course we must.

There's no substitute for knowing what you're talking about. The God Who Is is the God of Truth. You don't need to fear the loss of your faith if you follow the truth to where it leads you.

At 1:18 PM, Blogger Lori Heine said...

Just another P.S. here.

Every time I speak with somebody like Janice or Wish, I find this abysmal, appalling ignorance OF WHAT SCRIPTURE ITSELF FRIGGIN' SAYS. They talk a good game about the Bible, but surprisingly few of those who "know" the Bible condemns homosexualty (whatever the hell they define that to be) can tell you exactly what that means. They may regurgitate the standard "clobber" passages, but they cannot tell you what those passages mean, explain the context in which they were written, or even tell you what was said in the Bible immediately before or after them. They treat the Bible like the Want-Ad section of the newspaper, and cavalierly snip out the parts they think they like.

Five hundred years of Reformation, people, and -- as I have already stated elsewhere -- just behold the sad, servile and witless state to which Christians have been reduced.

Oceans of blood were shed by Protestants to keep the Pope from interpreting Scripture for them. Have they traded the Pontiff for Pastor Billy-Bob of the Jesus Channel? It certainly appears that they have.

Read the Bible for yourself. Many good people died so you would have the right to do that.

At 9:55 AM, Blogger Doxallo said...

Wow, thats some response.

You know nothing about me or what I know about "gay people" and my main concern is NOT for the comfort of the body (christians) which you could have found out about had you chosen to engage me rather than assume.

I actually do understand that you (and other christians) believe same sex in a committed relationship is not sin. I GET that already. lol. As I said, I am fine with that disagreement.

To go comaring sins is beyond me -- I believe sin is sin. No big or little ones, simply infractions against God.

I never once claimed to know anything about you personally. To say I know nothing of your lifestyle might be an accurate statement, but to assume I know nothing of the 'gay' lifestyle is rubbish. You are again making a huge assumption. (and again, I didn't comment on your blog to begin with to argue and don't want to do so now, I commented out of a common fellowship and unity in Christ. Not all Christians comdemn you even if they disagree with you, but perhaps you can't have it both ways)

I understand Jesus's views on divorce etc. You are picking a fight with the wrong person. :) Don't be angry at me for what someone else believes. (you seem angry at me for what someone else is apparently saying or doing)

I don't sanction the murder of civilians or anyone else...etc etc.

And again, I believe there are gays who have studied this passage and gays who have not. Its a big big world out there. :)

Suffice to say that I obviously overstepped by commenting here, I apologize, it is not my intent to stoke a fire that is obviously smoldering.....

At the risk of being misunderstood, my heart goes out to you.

Take care, God bless. :)



At 12:13 PM, Blogger Lori Heine said...


You seem to be a person of goodwill, so I am merely trying to turn that little light-bulb on above your head. Nobody is trying to persecute you, so you need not feel so wounded about what i say.

There are millions of gay people in this country, and a wide variety of different possible gay "lifestyles." Some of them are quite destructive. Given your injured tone, I must assume that either you don't know this, or that you think I must approve of every decision made by every other gay person on the face of the earth. Since I spend a large part of my time ministering to gays who lack religious faith and indulge in destructive lifestyles, I can assure you that I am hardly ignorant of their existence.

I also know a wide variety of different heterosexual Christians, and am perfectly cognizant of the fact that some are beautiful people who faithfully follow their Lord, others are vile and cowardly hypocrites and most are somewhere in between those two extremes. How amusing it is that so many straight Christians seem to think gays hatch fully-grown out of some giant egg or come from some distant planet, and that we therefore know nothing about the rest of the world.

Ignorance kills. I believe I've said that somewhere already, but it bears repeating. Some are being murdered, and others (especially many young people) driven to suicide, drugs or life on the street because of the dumb ideas so many have about gays and their supposed one-size-fits-all "lifestyle." That Christians are inflicting more of this suffering than anybody else will go down as one of the greatest disgraces in the history of the faith. Someday you may thank me for giving you a more accurate picture of the world.

I do not intend to argue over whether every gay Christian knows the true story on the "clobber" passages of Scripture or not. For you to assume that very many would not borders on the insane. WE are the ones staking our very eternity on whether gay Christianity is possible or whether it is not.

There is one very curious passage from your last reply that begs especially for a rebuttal. You say, "Not all Christians comdemn you even if they disagree with you, but perhaps you can't have it both ways)." Given the raftload of assumptions inherent in this statement, I must suppose you don't realize that a great many Christians (the number grows daily) neither condemn NOR disagree with me. Even a fair number of Evangelicals have come to see the light on this.

I don't think you want it on your conscience that anyone's life gets ruined because of what you don't know. Thank God you have no power to do that to me, but there are a lot of young people who must live in this world after we get done with it. I can't answer for how you choose to live your life. As for me, I choose to add to the light instead of the darkness.


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